egalitarianmra:
randomnerd192:
egalitarianmra:
randomnerd192:
egalitarianmra:
the-strong-silent-typist:
randomnerd192:
the-strong-silent-typist:
randomnerd192:
This is a problem
Meanwhile men don’t get the right to vote unless they sign paperwork allowing the government to turn them into expendable weapons. And no protection from infant genital mutilation. And no reproductive rights. And in many areas they cannot see justice if they are raped or abused.
But yeah, a short partial list of fictonal characters with happy endings and a long partial list of dead fictional characters is a problem.
Hey, op here. I agree with all of your points (except I’m unclear on the reproductive rights one, but that’s okay). I want gender equality, and I recognize that men face societal standards that are unfair, such as drafts and castration, and I don’t believe in either of them either.
However, I fail to see what any of that has to do with my post. These are two wildly different discussions, and the fact that I’m advocating equal LGBTQ representation doesn’t mean that I’m simultaneously not advocating for gender equality. Both of these things affect different groups of people in different ways. Why are we comparing them? Why are we hijacking completely unrelated posts? It’s pointless.
My addition to your post was intended to set in contrast the largest issues that affect the male and female genders in our culture. Female issues are things such as media coverage, social expectations, and similar soft issues. Men on the other hand lack actual legal rights in our society, by law just for being men.
There was nothing specific and superlative that singled out your post for me to comment on, I just saw a post about thoroughly trivial complaints from feminist sources and I thought that it was a good opportunity to put that in relief against the life-and-death issues that men suffer by comparison.
My post did not take anything away from your post. The original meaning is intact, and I started my own divergent conversation from it.
I think this should be a good sign, take a minute and think about the amount of straight men in things, how much would you like to bet if you looked at it all a majority of them die to further to story or don’t get a happy ending, it’s just the way narrative works. What this says to me is that Lesbians and Bi women are getting more representation. Bad things happen to fictional characters.
I completely understand where you’re coming from, bro. I really do, and I thought about that too. So I did some research and I thought about it, and here’s what I found :)
So, first of all, it turns out that media representation actually ISN’T on the increase for gay/bi women. In fact, since 1976, there have been less than 200 gay/bi women characters on tv or in movies at all. To put that in perspective, there are currently 400 tv shows airing through networks, broadcasting, and streaming services. That means that the total number of gay/bi women shown in tv shows AND movies since 1976 doesn’t even account for half the tv shows that are on air currently. To say the least, that sucks.
When these characters DO finally appear, they rarely last more than one season. In fact, overall, gay/bi women have an 80% death rate. Now, we’re really not opposed to these characters dying off. I mean, we’re a bit opposed to them dying off so frequently, and we’d like to see that rate lowered to a more realistic standard, but whatever. What we really dislike is that the vast majority of these deaths occur because of a jealous boyfriend or a father that can’t accept his daughters love for a girl or whatever. Very rarely do these deaths have meaning besides furthering the development of the main character, and very rarely do these characters get decent story lines.
To recap, we’re not opposed to our lesbian/bi characters dying, we’re opposed to how often they die (80% death rate) and how they never have decent, original story lines.
Also, yes, straight characters die all the time, but when they do, there’s a bunch more everywhere else. But a lot of times these writers will bring in an LGBTQ character so that they can say “look we have representation”, only to botch their story lines and kill them off within one season. Which also sucks, obviously.
Thanks for reading :)
Let me just say I love the level of discourse, so perhaps you’d allow me another rebuttal? It’s clear the attitudes towards homosexuality is becoming more sympathetic but it’s clearly not been so in recent history, could that perhaps account for the number of deaths? That is to say the fact that we know bad things have happened to homosexuals for decades compels writers to end their stories the way they seem to?
I think you’re absolutely correct with that point. There’s a whole history behind the LGBTQ movement that doesn’t get taught, and all people end up hearing about is the violence and hatred towards the LGBTQ community. I think that definitely has an impact on what is portrayed in our media, especially since the vast majority of producers and writers are straight. It’s the danger of a single story. Now, I don’t fault them for that, but I fault them for choosing not to address the issue when it’s presented to them. Jason Roth and other writers have chosen to just ignore their LGBTQ fans and hope the criticism goes away, which is what I have a problem with. That’s how a single story persists, you know? And therefore, we can’t use it as an excuse anymore. It’s a writers job to write a variety of different characters, and if they can’t write a character that is different from themselves in an accurate and developed way, then I don’t think they should be a writer, you know?
Eh I’m less inclined to believe “They don’t understand because they’re straight” and more “They want to sell the sensational.” So even indie filmakers and even LGBTQ filmmakers are more likely to focus on the violence or the big stories because they know it’s the kind of thing that gets peoples attention.
So, first of all, it turns out that media representation actually ISN’T on the increase for gay/bi women. In fact, since 1976, there have been less than 200 gay/bi women characters on tv or in movies at all. To put that in perspective, there are currently 400 tv shows airing through networks, broadcasting, and streaming services. That means that the total number of gay/bi women shown in tv shows AND movies since 1976 doesn’t even account for half the tv shows that are on air currently. To say the least, that sucks.
How does that prove that media representation isn’t increasing compared to what it used to be?
In fact, inability to grok context seems to be a running theme here.
In fact, overall, gay/bi women have an 80% death rate. Now, we’re really not opposed to these characters dying off. I mean, we’re a bit opposed to them dying off so frequently, and we’d like to see that rate lowered to a more realistic standard, but whatever.
What about the many, many characters whose sex lives we don’t explicitly know about? I didn’t learn that McGonagall had a husband until Pottermore came out. I was shipping her with Dumbledore until, well, you know.
Speaking of which, lots of people complained that Dumbledore being gay wasn’t explicitly made clear in the books. To which people, myself included, asked when it would have been appropriate in-universe for Harry to learn about Dumbledore’s love life. I’ve never heard an answer.
To recap, we’re not opposed to our lesbian/bi characters dying, we’re opposed to how often they die (80% death rate) and how they never have decent,
That’s an entirely subjective judgement, and I strongly doubt you’ve personally watched those 160 storylines.
original story lines.
Neither do most characters. Have you never heard of ’The Seven Basic Plots’. Star Wars is possibly the most famous and influential franchise of all time, and Lucas has basically admitted that he ripped off everything but the lightsabers.
What we really dislike is that the vast majority of these deaths occur because of a jealous boyfriend or a father that can’t accept his daughters love for a girl or whatever. Very rarely do these deaths have meaning besides furthering the development of the main character, and very rarely do these characters get decent story lines.
So you’re expecting supporting characters’ storylines to have main character importance. Based on lumping forty years of TV and films together, instead of comparing actual eras and including context. Sure, that makes sense.
What’s ironic is that as I understand it, the death that started this whole uproar involved a character who was involved with the female, bisexual lead character. Also, several of the modern examples are from shows like Scream Queens and American Horror Story and Supernatural and 24 and Buffy, which regularly kill off characters. I also like how Xena is included in there even though she died at the end of her long-running and popular TV series. In fact, most of the deaths on the list seem to be clustered in the last 15 years, less than a dozen examples are prior to 1996,
and some of them are from shows that already have a higher than usual amount of LGBT characters, like Dante’s Cove, Orange, or The L Word. Which indicates to me that representation is increasing.
Some of the examples are from Latin American shows, which strikes me as…reaching.
When I look at >the list<, deaths inflicted by fathers and boyfriends are actually pretty uncommon, so I’d really like to know what you’re basing your claim on. Heck, a fair amount seem to have been killed by their girlfriends or other women.
I wonder how much of the high death rate has to do with shows willing to show sexuality at all are more mature and mature shows having a higher death count overall.